@richpuchalsky

“Anarchists don't even think that people should vote!”
Ah well, “should” compared to the situation we’re in are night and day aren’t they?

So, it sounds to me like you’re saying you don’t mind much as things get truly awful because it exposes the rot in the system that must be dismantled?

@futurebird

@DavidM_yeg

"So, it sounds to me like you’re saying": you don't know what I'm saying, learn something about anarchism if you want to.

What *you're* saying is: people in the US can't avoid approving of genocide and have to pretend that they are doing good by voting for genocide + less bad vs genocide + bad. There is no reason for anyone concerned about politics or morality to vote for this. It just tries to turn approval of genocide into a virtue.

@futurebird

@richpuchalsky

That’s not what I’m saying. Let me be as clear as I can:

Trans people and migrants are saying that they would prefer a neighbour who voted for Democrats over one who didn’t vote because *they* are being directly harmed as a result of that choice.

I’m saying that if you are going to be critical of others over the result of their choices, you need to be willing to listen and engage with the results of your choices.

And I’m saying that the choice not to vote didn’t save a single child or adult in Gaza.

I am directly saying that reducing these choices to a black and white, “good” vs “bad” is profoundly distorting.

I’m also saying that if you think that anarchism means stepping outside of living in society as some kind of morally pure lone wolf, then you clearly don’t understand much about anarchism or people.

@futurebird

@DavidM_yeg

"I am directly saying that reducing these choices [about whether to commit genocide] to a black and white, “good” vs “bad” is profoundly distorting."

Yeah, no.

As for what "Trans people and migrants" are saying, they are not tokens. Some trans people and migrants are anarchists. Some are not but still understand that an anarchist doing mutual aid or community defense is still helping them more someone who voted Blue one time.

@futurebird

@richpuchalsky

Of course mutual aid helps more. I feel like you are saying anyone who talks about elections is doing it instead of more direct work.

Having better leadership would make it easier to do the mutual aid.

I WAS helping students get recommendation letters and discussing what they wanted to study. Now I'm also helping them find more people to help with immigration and having nightmares about them getting beat up by ICE. This is worse. It's not good.

@futurebird

I mentioned mutual aid and community defense in response to a "purity politics" guy who was saying it's all about elections.

I didn't say that people who voted Democratic or GOP in the last election can't also do good things. They are all genocide supporters, though. They aren't people who I look to for advice on moral decisions.

@richpuchalsky @futurebird

I don't even think it's transparent that trans people or immigrants would have it better under a Harris administration. After all, the Democrats voted mostly en masse for Laken Riley, which as a law is pretty much a nuke dropped on due process and oversight of law enforcement, and their attitude toward trans people has been indistinguishable from their attitude toward queer people in the 90s: ew, but I guess I'll let you vote for me.

@johnzajac @richpuchalsky

IDK run down the list. It's bad.

@futurebird @richpuchalsky

I guess at this point when I encounter "lesser evil" advocates, I'm torn between sharing what Hannah Arendt thought of lesser evil, and showing that the "lesser" is so minuscule that it's hard to find, if it exists at all.

In modern US politics, we confuse aesthetics with substance so frequently that it's no wonder there are still people who think "lesser evil/harm reduction voting" is an effective or even necessary way to run anything

@futurebird @richpuchalsky

Biden, for example, killed 3x more people than Trump re: the pandemic. But people are like "he said the right stuff! he got the scientists to say stuff! wheeee" and the numbers just don't register in their heads.

Biden started the logging of protected lands. Biden started leasing protected land to oil companies. Biden deported and denied asylum to more people than any previous President. Biden committed crimes to send weapons to Israel.

@futurebird @richpuchalsky

He broke strikes, ignored environmental disasters, and let his FDA run off the handle. His "signature legislation" was classic tax policy BS that passes for "regulation" under Democrats

Now, was he nominally "better" than Trump? Sure. Why not. At a certain point though, does it matter if you only sniped the toddler in the head, not the head and heart? One is less than the other, but you'd have to be a little deranged to think they're different

@futurebird @richpuchalsky

At some point, folks like me who voted lesser evil despite knowing better had to reckon with the fact that despite voting for lesser evil - or maybe *because of it* - greater evil won. And when you had that moment of reckoning probably determines whether or not you voted for Harris.

Now it's other "lesser evil" folks turn: you've gotta realize that your actions are 100% not effective at preventing harm, because Trump *is still free*.

@futurebird @richpuchalsky

Set aside moral considerations.

Is voting for lesser evil *effective*, is the question you should be asking yourself.

If you've been paying attention, the answer is obvious.

Just in case (sigh) it's NO.

@johnzajac @richpuchalsky

> Is voting for lesser evil *effective*, is the question you
> should be asking yourself.

Look at the history of Black people in this country. First of all we have a vision of the USA as a multicultural nation. Not just with white and black Christians but people of all religions or none. And not just black and white either. Some of the progress has been political and through the system some had to be outside of it.

@johnzajac @richpuchalsky

There have always been people who wanted us purged, or sent of to "somewhere else" and some of them are still at it.

I don't see the value in not using all of the available tools just because liberal moderates can be lulled into thinking that all they need to do is vote and everything will work out.

It seems like an over correction for no good reason.

@futurebird @richpuchalsky

Was the political progress sui generis, or was it driven by the outside efforts?

We live during a time when the value of a vote is near to nothing, if only because politicians don't actually care what the people want; they have their own constituents, and they are not *us*.

No politician will change substantively unless they believe their power is on the line. Default voting in a duopoly is just us giving our power away.

@johnzajac

Getting the vote and applying it, insisting on "following the rules" has often been and excellent tool in making progress. Other times? Call Mr. Nat Turner I guess.

I don't know I look at the various ways that things can work out for "minority" cultures in larger countries. You can be adsorbed and vanish, you can be erased from the earth, or you can insist on sitting at the table and being a part of *everything*

@futurebird

I guess the eternal modern USian argument in politics is: if you vote for Democrats, do you get a seat at the table?

In my experience, the answer is 'no', at least for leftists, queer people, poor people, and trans people, most of the time.

I still vote because it takes minimal effort and I no longer value it as a measure of anyone's affirmative intent.

@johnzajac

"if you vote for Democrats, do you get a seat at the table?"

There isn't just one table. I was speaking more of simply voting at all. Running for office. Talking about the candidates, publishing newspapers, making media, participating in universities, hospitals, churches and sports. Being a part of society.

This isn't really about Democrats at all?